Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk it

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Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk it

Post by peppercorn » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:04 am

Well I guess they have a sort of cease fire, kinda...I have a stop watch who wants to bet on how long it will last?
I have been trying to find out just how much money has been lent by the IMF to Ukraine sence this all started but its been hard to nail down the exact should be easy, as The IMF isn't supposed to loan any money to countries at war, civil or otherwise, or loan money to counrties that have no chance of paying it the amount should be 0, but I think it must be nearing 30 billion or so, I know its north of 20 billion. to a country with its industrial base lost..completely
If Poroshenko is smart he will have moved his family out of Kiev,and he should keep a chopper ready near by, if the pause is long enough to truly count the dead, and I suspect it is higher than claimed he may wonder if his end will be Kadafi must be on his mind..You only have to look at who they are sending to fight the Russians/Ukrainians in the east...the faces are 40 plus, even with conscription I bet many of the younger, who can look ahead, have been getting out of there as fast as they can, anyway they can, to whatever country they can.
This hasn't been hard to see at all.....such surprise, and shock in western circles, it wasn't supposed to go like this...USA, Britian and any other western nations absolutely have sharp well educated experts on Russia who could have advised that this was very much a probable scenario... but why rock the boat, much better to sit quiet over by the mashed potatoes and collect your check, and hopefully retire early.
Well I think the lesson is if you are going to play chess...don't play chess with someone who is willing to smash the chess board, and its being smashed

Industrial base is gone, over 100 billion in trade with Russia gone, it might be 150 billion depending on source, now the population indebted to the IMF for billions with no way to pay it back, a civil war....this isn't going to end well...

Silly me, it will end well for these companies as I bet Ukraine lost a lot of equipment in the fighting and will need more,

Lockheed Martin Corp.
The Boeing Company
General Dynamics Corp.
Raytheon Company
Northrop Grumman Corp.
BAE Systems plc
United Launch Alliance L.L.C.
General Electric Company
Bell-Boeing Joint Project Office
Hewlett-Packard Company
Honeywell International Inc.
The Aerospace Corp.
A.P. Moller - Maersk A/S
Rolls-Royce Corp.
Patriot Team
Miscellaneous Foreign Contractors
Redstone Defense Systems
Dyncorp International LLC
Kongsberg Gruppen
CDW Government LLC
Dyncorp International LLC
Phillips 66 Company
Johnson Controls Inc.
Hellfire Systems LLC

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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by Jensen » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:06 pm

Yes you are right this is an incredible mess.

Self-determination is good when mandated by USA and Nato. Otherwise it needs to be eradicated. The fact that Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk all voted for independence of Ukraine and then to be part of Russia should be no surprise given the history and the composition of the people in the area. Russian. But if we do not agree with the outcome we ignore it and then fight it.

To me I feel like the average German must have done in July/August 1945 e few months after the end of the Second World War when they realised what really went on in the Third Reich in their name. We in Nato are actually the bad guys today.

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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by Singlecell » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:05 pm

Good Post/thread. Where did you come up with such a detailed and accurate list though? Off the top of your head?

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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by peppercorn » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:09 pm

Not much on top of my head any more...There are lists of defence contractors all over the net, I just googled the largest...that doesn't include the private security companies KBR...and get this many no bid contracts...I am not making that up.
Here is the top 10 and sales data.

#10 Computer Sciences Corp Navy

CSC supports U.S. Navy aviation simulator training.

Arms sales: $6 billion

Total profit: $759 million

Employees: 91,000 people

With a focus on technology-based solutions, the CSC's aerospace and defense sector is booming. Among its portfolios, it is responsible for training and simulation services for the U.S. military.

In January this year, the U.S. Navy awarded CSC a $60 million dollar task order to instruct naval aviation simulator training programs.

The U.S. Army has previously used CSC for designing battlefield simulations to help improve survivability by training soldiers and medics to save lives while under fire.

#9 Oshkosh

Oshkosh Defense

Keeping pace with rapidly moving forces.

Arms sales: $7 billion

Total profit: $790 million

Employees: 12,400 people

Oshkosh Truck's defense branch is responsible for delivering severe-duty tactical and armored vehicles.

The U.S. Marine Corps recently placed a $94 million dollar order for more than 200 Oshkosh LVSR (Logistics Vehicle System Replacement) cargo trucks, the Corps' heavy-payload platform of choice since it first debuted in Afghanistan in 2009.



SAIC cyber defense services detect and counter e-attacks

Arms sales: $8.2 billion

Total profit: $618 million

Employees: 43,400 people

SAIC's national security sector provides the Department of Defense, the FBI and other U.S. government civil agencies with engineering systems and anti-terrorism technologies.

The SAIC Force Protection Suite, an integrated surveillance system, is used by U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan to decide when and how to respond to enemy threat.

#7 United Technologies


Black Hawk helicopters serving the U.S. Army in Afghanistan.

Arms sales: $11.4 billion

Total profit: $4.7 billion

Employees: 208,220 people

United Technologies' military services business is most noted for the UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter, manufactured by subsidiary Sikorsky Aircraft.

The corporation also develops technology for aerospace and building industries.

#6 L-3 Communications

L-3 Communications

SPYDR is an Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) beast.

Arms sales: $13 billion

Total profit: $95.5 million

Employees: 63,000 people

The company's C3ISR (Command, Control, Communications, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance) solutions are used by all branches of the U.S. military.

L-3 Communications says their small manned airborne intelligence-gathering platform, aptly named SPYDR, is the most versatile and inescapable in the world. It casts a "web" that captures mission-critical intelligence about its targets and delivers the information in real time.

#5 Raytheon


Raytheon's guided missile system.

Arms sales: $23 billion

Total profit: $1.9 billion

Employees: 46,900 people

Raytheon's sectors of expertise are missiles and electronics.

Their intelligence and information systems are used by the Missile Defence Agency, NASA, the Department of Defense and even the United Kingdom's Border Agency

#4 General Dynamics


The Abrams M1 Main Battle Tank

Arms sales: $24 billion

Total profit: $2.6 billion

Employees: 90,000 people

General Dynamics produces military vehicles such as the legendary Abrams M1 Main Battle Tank, as well as ships, munitions, and military-grade communication systems.

The company has also been awarded an $8 million dollar contract for work on U.S. Navy nuclear-powered attack submarines.

#3 Northrop Grumann

Northrop Grumann

Crew working inside the E-2C Hawkeye, the "eyes" of the U.S. Navy fleet.

Arms sales: $28 billion

Total profit: $2 billion

Employees: 117,100 people

Northrop Grumann's areas of focus include drones and cyber security in support of its homeland security solutions.

They also develop CBRNE (Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear and Explosives) detection systems in place around the U.S. to identify potential threats.

The corporation recently pledged to further deepen its commitment to hiring former service members, in partnership with President Obama's Joining Forces initiative to integrate more veterans into the civilian workforce.

#2 Boeing

#2 Boeing


Air Force One, the most recognized symbol of the U.S. presidency.

Arms sales: $31.4 billion

Total profit: $2.9 billion

Employees: 160,500 people

The military arm of Boeing's business is most known for the Global Strike military aircraft program.

It supplies the U.S. military and other international forces with the likes of the AH-64D Apache combat helicopter, drones, missiles like the A160T Hummingbird, and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet strike fighter.

The U.S. Air Force favors the F-15E Strike Eagle, which has a perfect air-to-air combat record so far with more than a hundred victories and no losses.

#1 Lockheed Martin

#1 Lockheed Martin

Lockheed Martin

The F35-A test fleet stationed at Edwards Air Force Base.

Arms sales: $35.7 billion

Total profit: $2.9 billion

Employees: 132,000 people

Lockheed Martin's main weapons system is the F-35 joint strike fighter, expected to become one of the world's largest military aircraft programs.

In expanding their F-35 program, Lockheed Martin opened a manufacturing facility in Pinellas Park, Florida, to develop parts for the F-35 Lightning II fighter.

you will notice a non corralation between sales and profit, for example Lockheed with 35 billion in sales and 2.9 billion in profit VS Black hawk helicopters 11.4 billion and 4.7 billion in profit. Some may have cost plus contracts where you heavily pad the expence side with assets you strip out at a later time.
The billions sloshing around is huge, hell there is so much money you could keep every congress man/woman in hookers and blow 24/ could have them vote for war every day, a point would come where they would find enemies everywhere, and if they couldn't find some they would make them up even if it means convincing you, you are the enemy. Its a hell of a racket.

Back to the some point (it likely is starting) even the most ardent nationalist in western Ukraine is going to reach the conclusion, that he is hopelessly indebted to western banks (imf), governed if not directly by americans/westerners, by their proxies and cant ever even hope to have the standard of living he had just a year ago...he will be unable to tell the difference from being a surf on his own land, under Russian screws or American ones....Though the Russians atlest fronted him some gas so he wouldn't freeze in his flat.
He is going to start thinking that not freezing is good................
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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by peppercorn » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:33 pm

I shouldn't have left that last thought unfinished. There will be, if it isn't already underway, an active plan to delay the full realization of just how surf like indebted they are becoming and it will follow the time proven strategy of blaming this case those who speak Russian, have family in eastern Ukraine, moved from eastern Ukraine, or just plain are not showing enough patriotic enthusiasm. It will start with the professional class. Doctors Lawyers, Architects, Administrators. All will be replaced, forced out, fired, maybe acussed of corruption, that always goes over well. Replacements wont have to worry about their qualifications only that they show loyalty, and they will be well rewarded for that loyalty after all there is billions in IMF money to pay out to the loyal. If there is one thing I am sure of its that not one dollar in 100 of any IMF money will ever benefit the people in any way, yet the people will be on the hook for it with interest.....and here is what will really start to gaul the people most...much of the borrowed money...has to be paid to Russia for gas! now the Americans don't mind financing both sides in a war, even one they are fighting in but the absurdity of doing so to people who cant print their own petro dollars, who have to borrow foriegn currency to do so.... will soon sink in.
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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by prom » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:44 am

Russia's Ghost Army in Ukraine - Vice News investigation ... ine-part-1

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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by Jensen » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:52 pm

Shale gas mining/exploration equipment found at abandoned National Guard positions... I guess peppercorn is right.

As reported from a local reporter not some paid off westerner with an agenda. I know the reporter has an agenda. Of course she does. She lives there. But the evidence she presents speaks for it self. Think about it for a minute. If we are so quick to go in and search for gas while the fighting is going on could that not be one of the real reasons for expanding Nato right up to Russia's border in defiance to the agreements we made with USSR when the Warsaw Pact collapsed. Now there is an agenda to submit Russia who has stood up to the US in Iran, Syria and elsewhere. Transferring Europe's natural gas dependencies from Russia to Ukraine (with a pro US installed corrupt government) is one way of defeating Russia in today's Financial wars.

I should say that from transparency I grew up in a Nato country with my entire family serving in the military. I was raised as a conservative and with a healthy fear of communism and belief that one day the Warsaw Pact countries would invade Western Europe. I served in the military when the Wall came down and was one of the last NCO's to still distrust Gorbatjov (I honestly thought it was all a trick and that they would come any day now...). I lived through the changes first hand and I remember exactly how gentleman (and Lady) like Reagan, Thatcher and Gorbatjov ended the cold war and the mistrust between a divided Europe. This is the reason why I am sad to see the West go back on its words and operating like it has around the world since 9/11. I am not a communist nor a Putin sympathizer I am a realist who feels betrayed and who feel that we are abandoning the Western ideals of freedom and free choice that we "won" the cold war with. It feels like waking up as a German citizen in July 1945 thinking how did I miss all that ?...

In the end even I have realised that there is little profit to be made in Peace time for the Military Industrial Complex and that is probably one of the reasons why we are where we are today.

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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by thecrownsown » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:17 pm

What were the borders before this all started?

Why was Crimea in Ukrainian hands initially? What agreement made this part of Ukraine?

Who was the initial aggressor in this recent conflict?

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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by Jensen » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:04 pm

Not sure how long back we should go to determine the borders. Ukraine as we know it was divided between Austria and Russia in 1795. In the 1920's after the end of the Russian Revolution it fought a brief war and gained independence by Ukrainian Bolshevik's who then joined in with Russia and others to form what we know as USSR. A Union of Socialistic countries combined to spread communism globally.

In 1954 Crimea was given as a symbolic gift to Ukraine from Russia (allegedly after an evening of heavy drinking (remember Stalin just died the year before so a nice gift might just keep Crimea in check while power was consolidated after Stalin's dead. I am speculating here !)). Before 1954 it was part of Russia.

According to Western media we are being told that Russia inserted its military in Novarossia (which is Lugansk and Donetsk Republics) to stir up a rebellion against Ukraine. However the first thing that happened after the elected government and president was ousted in Ukraine was a set of laws discriminating Russians. This combined with the fact that these areas predominantly voted for the legally elected government and president who got toppled was enough for them to take up arms and demand autonomy from Ukraine and a right to self determination.

According to Novorussian and Russian media the people are being morally and are being supported morally as well as by volunteers from Russia, Afghanistan, Serbia, Greece, Italy etc. Officially there is no Russian military personnel in Novorussia. I highly doubt that as we have Nato instructors in Ukraine and Nato are providing material support so why would Russia not help out with instructors and material support as well. Not to mention the equipment employed by Novorussia is quite sophisticated and even taking into account the Ukrainian military units switching sides following the demand for autonomy I suspect that they have a good amount of Russian support. Which is not surprising given that Nato is breaking the promises from the end of the Cold War.

So initial aggressor is up to interpretation. Its a belief question or a question of who wins and writes the history of this. But when a country experiences turmoil like the fall of a government it is not unusual for distant parts of that country to ask for some form of autonomy and self determination as in this case. When those voices are overheard or ignored and further new laws suppresses them it further reinforces the quest for autonomy or full out separation. When arms is taken up to win that separation by force I guess you could say that the Novorussian people started the conflict.

This Youtube explains some more recent events regarding Novorussia:

I find this interesting as I saw this exact same development and had to serve in the Yugoslavian Civil war myself. One day everything was normal in the small town of Blinjski Kut. Sure there were some problems in parliament and in Croatia people were demanding a right to self determination etc but nothing crazy. Next day Serbian armed civilians and uniformed police divided the town in two as Croatia had declared independence. Police came to investigate. An argument broke out. Followed by a fistfight and then the shooting started. That was how simple the war started in the area I was deployed to. Friends and neighbours at war over lines of borders, historical differences, religious differences etc. It quickly escalated into Mortars, artillery, tanks etc. In most societies those tools of war is never far away and when something like this happens people who know how to employ them do so quickly to gain the upper hand.

At the end of all this are normal people like us Canadians who just want a right to self determination just like the people in far away Kiev who toppled the democratically elected President. They too wanted change from this "Russian" president.

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Re: Ukraine, it just isnt going well..who would have thunk i

Post by peppercorn » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:39 pm

Well I just hate youtube vids for information of any kind. I am sure I could find one showing Winnie the poo flying a TBF Avenger from WW2 but that doesn't mean it happened.
Now here is my contibution, and I am sure we all can agree that its factually accurate and maybe the real reason for trying to control Ukraine, as we now know Jody foster just cant be impressed by men, so we must put our attention elsewhere. ... L5zzIkrXMc

Now in that first vid you will note that from the time she left the pole to walk over to the microphone and speak it was roughly 30 seconds...just 30 seconds, and if you watch her chest at the microphone she is inhaling deeply, her lung's sucking in air...but she has full control of her speech...she is not labouring to get the words out.......she is in full control.... I am ready to reach a conclusion from this vid.....she is a non smoker! I am sure of it.
Last edited by peppercorn on Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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