Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

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Odin Gray
Canada
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:47 pm

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Odin Gray » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:55 pm

Knuckle wrote: ...

You show me where I use misinformation and I will gladly retract and apologize. I know that you would prefer thinking our western governments have only committed defensive gestures throughout this dilemma but that would be a gross lie. These new sanctions against Russia after they withdrew their so-called volunteers blatantly portrays us as the aggressor and forewarns this is not over yet! And there is much more European dissension over these actions as they are so much closer to this conflict. Articles such as this seem to be published more easily abroad, yet even this article mentions censorship occurring in Holland too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qfmqZvF3GI

Many of our search engines seems to filter much of this content from reaching North America. From what I've figured so far, Google and Bing seem to place their priority placing at the far back so most viewers will tire out before discovering them. YouTube doesn't work on those same principles of search parameters as they seem to just block certain links instead. This aspect can be seen by just noting how many of the previous videos I linked here are now unavailable. This denotes censorship, no matter how you paint it.

It appears that our governments use the same tactics as used when dismissing all the holes found in the events leading to and after 9/11. By simply ignoring the 1,700 plus architectural engineers who petitioned to reopen the investigation, major questions go unanswered by proclaiming them "conspiracy theorists". Hard to argue with logic like that as it denotes a child standing with their fingers in their ears going "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA " .

I have presented too many facts that you obviously don't challenge as you haven't the answers either. Instead your approach is to find and target minor details and thus avoid the many points I present regarding EU's and now NATO's actions to further escalate this situation. We could especially go over all the initial events at the start of this conflict, as there were so many at the onset that it captured my attention as another potential 9/11 type event. I was better prepared for media misinformation this time round and decided then to challenge and expose these media tactics so others might ask questions too.

Maybe the majority of the people do prefer to live in a bubble...hard to tell as most also proclaim their having been awake during the whole event too. So then ask yourself, which do you prefer....the red pill or the blue one?

Thank you, knuckle.

Harper's antics (yes, I voted for him) are embarrassing at an international level. His foreign policy puts him as a lap dog for US foreign policy "Bomb them a little; lets see what happens!" .

Harper is after two things: access to new LPG markets IF the Russian supply is "unreliable", and a seat at the UN Security Council.

To any that doubt that the US and its NATO puppets are the "bad guy", just take an objective look at who the aggressor is in this conflict. Study some international law to determine IF a minority group has "rights" to self-determination. Before vilifying Putin, ask yourself "How many 'advisors' has the American govt put into foreign countries, and how does the American govt support regime change"?

I am not a fan of Russians as my family is a product of post-WW2 genocide attempts by the Soviet Union. But modern Russia IS NOT the Soviet Union of the mid twentieth century.

My best advice on foreign policy issues; read a lot of news sources, distrust them all to some extent, and then formulate your own researched opinion.

OG



prom
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:14 am
Location: Calgary

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by prom » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:31 am

Odin Gray wrote:
Harper is after two things: access to new LPG markets IF the Russian supply is "unreliable", and a seat at the UN Security Council.

I don't know about the seat at UN (but I'm sure have the data to back this up ;) ) but as far as the LPG goes, could you please explain how this will work? Is canada ready to make up for the cut in the russian gas? Is EU ready to import, you know, terminals, LPG ships and infrastructure. You would think that at least europeans have thought this through before the winter is coming and they were ready before they started the conflict as you and knuckle say.
Odin Gray wrote:To any that doubt that the US and its NATO puppets are the "bad guy", just take an objective look at who the aggressor is in this conflict. Study some international law to determine IF a minority group has "rights" to self-determination. Before vilifying Putin, ask yourself "How many 'advisors' has the American govt put into foreign countries, and how does the American govt support regime change"?
I took a very objective look and I'm pretty sure that Russia is the aggressor here. No doubt on my mind but this is just a personal opinion. I explained it before but I'm not the one who came here to say this , it's you and knuckle who came here and pretend to be experts in eastern european politics and make claims. So it's on you to explain and prove those claims. The part on minority group self-determination is pretty vague so maybe you can expand. It's good to have the opinion of an expert in international law. Also I must admit I have no idea how many "advisors" US have in different countries, but what I can tell you is that I still follow romanian news and politics closely and I'm not aware of any US advisors in Bucharest except maybe for the US election expert who's counseling the current prime minister for the presidential run. I think US government support any regime change that is in their interest and I don't see anything wrong in this. For instance, in Ukraine they supported the change of the corrupt regime of Ianukovich with a pro western government hoping that they will take some steps towards eradicating the endemic corruption that the said government established. US and western companies companies prefer to do business in environments that they are similar to what they have at home.
Odin Gray wrote:I am not a fan of Russians as my family is a product of post-WW2 genocide attempts by the Soviet Union. But modern Russia IS NOT the Soviet Union of the mid twentieth century.
Please explain what is in your vision a modern country and why do you consider Putin's Russia modern.
Odin Gray wrote:My best advice on foreign policy issues; read a lot of news sources, distrust them all to some extent, and then formulate your own researched opinion.
In my opinion sitting comfortable on your couch at home browsing the internet will not turn you into a foreign policy expert. It takes more than that.

prom
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:14 am
Location: Calgary

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by prom » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:00 am

Knuckle wrote:
So I too googled for some new news as I haven't done this for a few days and your article is indeed the first I found to mention any direct aid to the displaced people of the east.
You said in the previous post: <<<Anyone wonder why none of the EU nations haven't offered any aid to the east>>> and you've said this before. Somebody reading your post would take this as true since you're doing a lot of covering of this Ukraine matter and some might think you're actually well informed and people are too busy prepping here and don't have time to research everything you post. With a simple google search I proved you wrong. The article is dated Aug 12th, more than a month ago. If you were really interested to see if there is any western humanitarian aid for eastern Ukraine I'm sure you would have found it, google bots are doing a good page indexing pages.

On Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:18 pm you said: <<<NATO plans on performing exercises in west Ukraine which mean NATO will officially have boots on the ground.>>> This sounded like NATO was trying to actually get involved in the conflict. You didn't bother to do some research or provide all the details, those exercises were a regular thing starting 2006.

On Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:56 pm you said on "the power of suggestion" thread: <<<Amnesty International says a volunteer battalion with the Ukraine army has committed human rights violations in East Ukraine>>> and posted a link to a youtube video from RT saying the same thing. What RT and you omitted to say was that Amnesty International is also accusing Russia and the rebels of war crimes also. People reading your post would think that Amnesty International is only accusing Ukraine. I just went on the AI website and read the full story, an easy thing to do. When I pointed it out to you you completely ignored my point which was that this was propaganda and instead you started talking around the subject.

On Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:56 pm you said on "the power of suggestion" thread:<<After the overthrow of the takeover of Ukraine back in February, the new government soon removed the previous ban on Nazi symbolism to allow the neo-Nazi's to openly wear such insignia daily in public>> Normally you would think that the Ukrainian government repealed the said law so I googled that and I couldn't find anything. I challenged you to post the source for that. You didn't but instead you posted another youtube from RT showing people and wearing Nazi symbols and military insignia resembling Nazi symbols as well. This doesn't really match your statement. It doesn't mean that the government removed the ban on those symbols.

These are just a few examples of how you're spreading misinformation. There are more, like the one on shale gas where your logic was better than the study done by a team of experts, or your post on Gaddafi on an older thread (probably the one that was closed due to you posting a link to an youtube video containing antisemitic rhetoric ) and so on. I don't expect you to admit to it or retract anything. Your tactic is to just pound on the subject more and more so people will eventually think that you're the one who is right because you are the one who's shouting louder than everybody else.

You can't expect to be credible after all of the above and pretend that you have a neutral approach on the matter.


Knuckle wrote:I know that you would prefer thinking our western governments have only committed defensive gestures throughout this dilemma but that would be a gross lie.
It's not a lie unless it's proved to be a lie. Until then it's just speculation.

Knuckle wrote:I have presented too many facts that you obviously don't challenge as you haven't the answers either.
You are wrongly assuming that I have the same amount of time as you do to waste researching every piece of .... that you post in here. I can't keep up with you and I'm trying to be selective.
Knuckle wrote:Instead your approach is to find and target minor details
Look at the top of my post. Those are not minor details, they are important details on your claims.
Knuckle wrote:and thus avoid the many points I present regarding EU's and now NATO's actions to further escalate this situation. We could especially go over all the initial events at the start of this conflict, as there were so many at the onset that it captured my attention as another potential 9/11 type event. I was better prepared for media misinformation this time round and decided then to challenge and expose these media tactics so others might ask questions too.
And yet you weren't very prepared for the soviet propaganda on the RT. :)

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:08 am

Ah, it's nice to see that there are indeed others who show discontent in our country partaking in the manipulations of other nations. And it didn't take prom long to set his narrow focus upon you either Odin Gray. I don't know if it is best to debate this here as this threads topic Ukraine's present situation and their lack of basic necessities. I was chastised earlier and fear we are veering off course again.

The thread on Power of Suggestion is somewhat better for this debate but again it was criticized that it too was veering off course while I pointed out that I use Ukraine as the medium for comparison while presenting the psychology aspects of media manipulation. I have been trying to meet these requirements as I too often seem to walk these boundaries when covering so many implications. Maybe we should start a thread better aimed along discussing these various differences (and I can't imagine what to properly name it at this moment) so it entails these aspects of such a broad subject? And it is late while I'm finishing off servicing a customers computer and time for bed.

Prom, feel free to start this new thread and share your take on where you see things going so we can challenge your thoughts in turn....

~later~

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:30 am

Prom, do you note that you also don't respond back when I ask you questions in return? I have responded to many of your incessant retorts and note you always avoid the questions I impose while in the process of doing so. I can tell that you don't wish to truly debate anything but instead wish to impress upon others that I must be lying if I don't pursue your demands each and every time.

As I stated earlier, maybe it's your turn to present your opinions instead of just ranting and I can come in later and challenge those in turn. Seems I'm swamped with work into tomorrow and this was going to be my moment to relax and catch up here. Since I can't come to play, just start without me and I'll play later.

Meanwhile, time to state what you really think is going on as you seem sure that I can't possibly see things right. Maybe start out with why a British PM just claimed these same events occurred in the same fashion I have professed throughout this thread.... he must have all his facts misconstrued too!

The floor is yours!

prom
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:14 am
Location: Calgary

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by prom » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:19 am

Knuckle wrote:Prom, do you note that you also don't respond back when I ask you questions in return?
Were there rhetorical questions or they were addressed to me? I must apologize in advance if the last was the case. Please point them out to me again and I will do my bet to respond.
Knuckle wrote:I have responded to many of your incessant retorts and note you always avoid the questions I impose while in the process of doing so. I can tell that you don't wish to truly debate anything but instead wish to impress upon others that I must be lying if I don't pursue your demands each and every time.
You replied but not responded, Most of the time you used your power of suggestion, meaning you avoided the subject. I debated many times, I used logical arguments, personal experience, links to Wikipedia and other reliable and, as much as possible, neutral sources. Sometimes I asked from you you to give straight answer to simple questions which you didn't.

Here is one example. Go back to the thread that you started, Ukraine: Daily Update
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=5002&hilit=corruption&start=50

thread that was closed due to you posting a link to a youtube video " promoting hatred against an identifiable group" (Did I mentioned this before? :oops: ). On pages 6 of that thread I replied to many of your claims, like :

<<Why, if we (NATO, UN, EU) claim to interfere for humanitarian reasons, do we only seem to focus on those with some resource or strategic location and not many others. >>
claims that Ukrainians are fascists (btw, where are the ukrainians on this forums, I know there are at least three of them here),
claims about Gaddafi being a beloved leader, (which btw you didn't have any source for the big post) ,
claims that US <<<will continue to try bring about a war as they seem determined to achieve this goal.>>

I've also challenged you on a few of your claims:
<<With over 500,000 children alone dead in Iraq from US intervention (while they mourn their 3,500 US soldiers), it is hard to imagine they are grateful for American occupation.>>

<<the riot was backed and staged and the US doesn't even deny the authenticity of the recorded phone calls. >>

<<It took lots of money and coercion to provoke the people of the west to rise up and riot. >>

What was your response? You challenged wikepedia as a reliable source ( I replied in a later post why wikipedia is a fairly reliable and neutral source) and you posted another YOUTUBE VIDEO from Gaddafi's TV to counteract my personal take on dictators) . You ignored all my points. Yet you're accusing me that I'm not debating.

Knuckle wrote:As I stated earlier, maybe it's your turn to present your opinions instead of just ranting and I can come in later and challenge those in turn. Seems I'm swamped with work into tomorrow and this was going to be my moment to relax and catch up here. Since I can't come to play, just start without me and I'll play later.
Meanwhile, time to state what you really think is going on as you seem sure that I can't possibly see things right. Maybe start out with why a British PM just claimed these same events occurred in the same fashion I have professed throughout this thread.... he must have all his facts misconstrued too!

The floor is yours!
I don't rant and I don't make "incessant retorts". Recently I called bulls on some of your post. I went as far as accusing you of manipulating and spreading misinformation. I didn't just throw some accusations, I made a case for it, shown my reasons for that. What was your response? Nothing on my points, you just want me to start another thread with my claims !!!! Do you have a manual on the power of suggestion and are you using it? Please show some respect to me and to the other users and address the issues that I have raised before posting anymore crap.
Knuckle wrote: And it didn't take prom long to set his narrow focus upon you either Odin Gray.
So it seem like anybody who doesn't share your view has a narrow focus. What was wrong with my post? Do you have a problem with being challenged? This is a very dangerous approach.

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:33 am

So why must I reiterate a stand that has been already argued in the past when an MP of the British government admits that they(meaning the EU) have staged all the events that led to the overthrow of the originally elected Ukraine government? :D I'd say this is an admission of guilt straight from the horses mouth! This is turn led to Russia grabbing Crimea before we could stop them and so on and so on. It seems just tiring now to debate something that likely everyone knows is more than likely true. Just as we know too our side has most likely been doing this same thing with Iraq, Syria, Libya, and so on. Instead of seeking peaceful solutions we offer them nails for their coffins.

Just as you nor I can explain why our side continues to push Russia when we know that it will lead to war. Our leaders want war and it is so obvious to see these days that you have to be sh1tting flags in your sleep to miss this point. We continue to try to blame Russia for their continued actions when they continue to do as they always seem to do ..... absolutely nothing!

Now here is another interesting tidbit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTBG25gX_E
Seems no one thought to mention before this that Ukraine is the world's 9th largest manufacture of military hardware such as APC's, tanks and even jets, but all these factories were located in the east only. This is why Ukraine is pleading for weapons now from the NATO and yet we were led to believe that the east received all their present armaments from Russia. So maybe again Russia was telling the truth here too, but we never heard this was even possible as these facts we withheld from us. And just today I see that the west has finally blown up a munitions factory in the east and thus proving the pro-Russians also make their own ammunition too.

It must have just slipped their minds to include such minor details at a time when WW3 could be a real possibility! Maybe this better explains the lack of decent satellite imagery showing equipment crossing the Russian border when we live in a world with state of the art technology. How is it that we can supposedly tell when Russia even opens a missile silo door (signifying a possible higher state of alert) and yet not have more footage of all these tanks and rocket launchers crosses the borders?

prom
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:14 am
Location: Calgary

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by prom » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:22 pm

Knuckle wrote:So why must I reiterate a stand that has been already argued in the past when an MP of the British government admits that they(meaning the EU) have staged all the events that led to the overthrow of the originally elected Ukraine government? :D I'd say this is an admission of guilt straight from the horses mouth! This is turn led to Russia grabbing Crimea before we could stop them and so on and so on. It seems just tiring now to debate something that likely everyone knows is more than likely true. Just as we know too our side has most likely been doing this same thing with Iraq, Syria, Libya, and so on. Instead of seeking peaceful solutions we offer them nails for their coffins.

Just as you nor I can explain why our side continues to push Russia when we know that it will lead to war. Our leaders want war and it is so obvious to see these days that you have to be sh1tting flags in your sleep to miss this point. We continue to try to blame Russia for their continued actions when they continue to do as they always seem to do ..... absolutely nothing!

Now here is another interesting tidbit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTBG25gX_E
Seems no one thought to mention before this that Ukraine is the world's 9th largest manufacture of military hardware such as APC's, tanks and even jets, but all these factories were located in the east only. This is why Ukraine is pleading for weapons now from the NATO and yet we were led to believe that the east received all their present armaments from Russia. So maybe again Russia was telling the truth here too, but we never heard this was even possible as these facts we withheld from us. And just today I see that the west has finally blown up a munitions factory in the east and thus proving the pro-Russians also make their own ammunition too.

It must have just slipped their minds to include such minor details at a time when WW3 could be a real possibility! Maybe this better explains the lack of decent satellite imagery showing equipment crossing the Russian border when we live in a world with state of the art technology. How is it that we can supposedly tell when Russia even opens a missile silo door (signifying a possible higher state of alert) and yet not have more footage of all these tanks and rocket launchers crosses the borders?
LAME LAME LAME again!!! Why do I always have to correct "inaccuracies" in your posts. :roll: First of all he's not an "MP of the British government". Correct me if I'm wrong but there's no such thing as "MP of the British government" . It's either MP (Member of Parliament) or member of the government. There could be a case I guess when an MP can be a member of government but in this case he/she would hold both titles and not an aberration like the title you mentioned. He's actually a member of the EU parliament, he holds no official position in any form of UK government. You'll say that I'm picking on small details but attention to details like this show the quality of the overall post. And you didn't do your homework again, to put it nicely.

Second, he's the leader of a right wing populist party. And he admires Putin. If we take a deeper look in his career we can find some disturbing facts like :"After the speech of Herman Van Rompuy on 24 February 2010 to the European Parliament, Farage – to protests from other MEPs – addressed the former Belgian Prime Minister and first long-term President of the European Council saying that he had the "charisma of a damp rag and the appearance of low grade bank clerk".[33] Farage questioned the legitimacy of Van Rompuy's appointment, asking "Who are you? I'd never heard of you, nobody in Europe had ever heard of you".

He also said publicly that "he would feel "concerned" if a group of Romanian men moved next door to him. ". :shock: Now that I take very personally. :x

He is also the co-leader of an Eurosceptic group. So in the light of the above there is no surprise that he's taking that position. That doesn't mean though that he proves anything or that his position reflects the position of the EU like you claim (
Knuckle wrote:I'd say this is an admission of guilt straight from the horses mouth!
Also let's take a look at what his position is. He says that EU and NATO should feel guilty for inviting Ukraine to join. And that this invitation started the street movement and ended up into an coup that ousted the former president. He goes on to kinda justifying Putin's actions (remember, he's an admirer of his) by saying "If you poke the russian bear with a stick don't be surprise when he reacts". After that he identifies the real threat to the society as being the muslims ( extremists) and that Putin is an ally of western countries in fighting the "REAL" threat. So let's leave Ukraine to Putin cause he's to big of a bully to mess with and go with him on fighting the "real threat" . What a narrow minded prick!

Offering a country to freely join a union does not equal to trying to destabilize it. Sending soldiers, secret service agents and military equipment, stirring the local population and invading territories of a country is different. Do you remember Igor Strelkov, the russian citizen , former secret service, who led the Donbass insurgency until he was replaced with a local? Do you remeber the green men that showed up in Crimea after the ousting of Ianukovitch? And you lament about exercises held by Nato with Ukrainian army regularly since 2006. Nato abstained from sending lethal aid to Ukraine so far.(even if they are doing it now, which I'm not so sure, they have just started)' And after all this you still maintain that Europe and not Russia is at fault for what is happening in Ukraine.

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:12 pm

Ok, I'm going to play along with this rant for just a little as you are trying to paint what I present as unjust by throwing in trash that suits your needs but doesn't do anything else but promote the US propaganda which obviously leads to war.
prom wrote: he's the leader of a right wing populist party. And he admires Putin. If we take a deeper look in his career we can find some disturbing facts like
He also said publicly that "he would feel "concerned" if a group of Romanian men moved next door to him. ". :shock: Now that I take very personally. :x

He is also the co-leader of an Eurosceptic group. After that he identifies the real threat to the society as being the muslims ( extremists) and that Putin is an ally of western countries in fighting the "REAL" threat. So let's leave Ukraine to Putin cause he's to big of a bully to mess with and go with him on fighting the "real threat" . What a narrow minded prick!

Proclaiming him a Right Wing Populist is just name calling in an attempt to sway others with a view that paints him as a radical. Seems many of us fit this criteria here in Canada too according to Wikipedia's definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_populism

Euroscepticism is just another attempt at black-balling his person. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepti ... ed_Kingdom
This seems to be a movement that was against the creation of free trade as it would and did harm many economies, even Canada's. If you try to remember before free trade, we had many smaller thriving businesses that later fell to the expansionism of the bigger corporations due to new legislation which removed previous import tariffs that protected the small business.


Here is the whole context of what he said so others can determine for themselves if he is being narrow minded.

Transcript:

Amongst the long list of foreign policy failures and contradictions in the last few years including, of course, the bombing of Libya, the desire to arm the rebels in Syria, has been the unnecessary provocation of Vladimir Putin.

This EU empire, ever seeking to expand, stated its territorial claim on the Ukraine some years ago. Just to make that worse, of course, some NATO members said they too would like the Ukraine to join NATO. We directly encouraged the uprising in the Ukraine that led to the toppling of the president, Yanukovych, and that led of course in turn to Vladimir Putin reacting. And the moral of the story is if you poke the Russian bear with a stick, don't be surprised when he reacts.

Just to continue with that, today we are rushing through an Association Agreement at undue speed with the Ukraine and as we speak there are NATO soldiers engaged in military exercises in the Ukraine. Have we taken leave of our senses? Do we actually want to have a war with Putin? Because if we do, we are certainly going about it the right way.

Perhaps we ought to recognise that the West now faces the biggest threat and crisis to our way of life that we have seen for over 70 years. The recent beheadings of the British and American hostages graphically illustrates the problem. And of course we have our own citizens from our own countries engaged in that struggle, too.

In the war against Islamic extremism, Vladimir Putin, whatever we may think of him as a human being, is actually on our side.

I suggest we grow up. I suggest recognise the real threat facing all of our countries, communities and societies. We stop playing war games in the Ukraine and we start to prepare a plan to help countries like Syria, like Iraq, like Kenya, like indeed Nigeria, to try and help them to deal with the real threat that faces us. Let's not go on provoking Putin whether we like him or not.

Question to Farage: Sir, in your considered opinion, what is better, to have Russian soldiers fighting a war on the territory of Ukraine, or NATO troops exercising as a response to that on the territory of Ukraine?

Reply from Farage: The point that I was making was that there should be a huge degree of guilt in this house about what provoked all this in the first place, and we saw Western Ukrainians, waving European flags, rioting, setting fire to things, and effectively staging a coup d'état, which brought down the Ukrainian president, which has led to this instability. Yes, yes, you are the guilty people and you refuse to accept it.

prom wrote: Offering a country to freely join a union does not equal to trying to destabilize it. Sending soldiers, secret service agents and military equipment, stirring the local population and invading territories of a country is different. Do you remember Igor Strelkov, the russian citizen , former secret service, who led the Donbass insurgency until he was replaced with a local? Do you remeber the green men that showed up in Crimea after the ousting of Ianukovitch? And you lament about exercises held by Nato with Ukrainian army regularly since 2006. Nato abstained from sending lethal aid to Ukraine so far.(even if they are doing it now, which I'm not so sure, they have just started)' And after all this you still maintain that Europe and not Russia is at fault for what is happening in Ukraine.
All these actions have been covered so many times, yet you try to claim they haven't been. Do you not also remember the facts that not even one bullet was fired and all was simply handed over to them. Only those Ukrainian soldiers who then returned to the west were originally from there. 17 neutral countries participated in Crimea's vote to call it just while all EU countries opted out. Just as even the Red Cross and OSCE observers also chose not to inspect Russia's convoy supplies as it gives them plausible deniabilty later if they so need it.

Nice try at defamation of character! Both his and mine! You are right on one point though...I'm not really trying very hard as the truth tends to expose itself over time anyways and the more the lies, the harder it becomes to bury them all!

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:33 am

Seems Farage even came to Canada on a PC party invite in 2012 to explain his stand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SxKUAMCw5Q

ABC reporter in Russia shows protesters and states one sign says "Hands off Ukraine". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQ3W8XRuc0
CNN does better with questioning protestors( in English) to suggest that there is higher dissension than the stated 15% . Yet even these folks don't appear absolutely sure that Russia is involved in the current fighting. Other reports suggest far worse outrage but don't show any footage to match. Seems folks did get to march as many proclaimed Russia wouldn't tolerate it. Did you note that there wasn't any footage of military or police presence to subdue the crowd in any way. Even Canada would have had more presence at such a march. Yet the crowds didn't take advantage of this lack of authority and notice that none were wearing masks to hide their identities to avoid later retribution. Therefore it would be hard to believe the hype that other sources paint on this protest. Seems Putin let in the reporters to discredit this aspect too.

Ukraine troops are claiming they broke thru and advanced on Ilovaisk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HcsU-1N9O0
There is lots of Ukraine daily footage to show that they are continually shelling cities in the east still https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoknCdjPl0U
Can't verify these but there is awful lot of new ones daily as the pro-Ukraine stuff still gets thru.

The Ukraine and pro-Russian armies are supposed to be retreating somewhat to create a 30 Km buffer zone that will be monitored by OCSE observers. This will make it far easier to see who is initiating an attack by crossing this boundary. At least it is a start to controlling any escalation of further aggression by either side. Where they decide this line is to be might be discerned by what ground your presently hold at that given time. This might be one reason why both sides seem to continue the fighting during the given ceasefire.

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