Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

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prom
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Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by prom » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:39 am

Perhaps it would be fair to mention that the NATO Ukraine peace keeping exercises are held regularly since 2006 as the most trusted news agency says in this article:

<<The Ukrainian-American exercises have taken place in Lvov since 2006 under the framework of NATO's broader 'Partnership for Peace,' which Ukraine is part of. >>

http://rt.com/news/184624-us-military-drill-ukraine/

But hey, why bother with details like this if they are not good for the cause.

The rest of your post is speculations like usual. And btw, while they were discussing cease fire in Minsk, Putin sent more military to help the russian troops already spending their vacation in Ukraine ( http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 16351.html ) .



Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:19 pm

prom wrote:Perhaps it would be fair to mention that the NATO Ukraine peace keeping exercises are held regularly since 2006 as the most trusted news agency says in this article:

<<The Ukrainian-American exercises have taken place in Lvov since 2006 under the framework of NATO's broader 'Partnership for Peace,' which Ukraine is part of. >>

http://rt.com/news/184624-us-military-drill-ukraine/

But hey, why bother with details like this if they are not good for the cause.

The rest of your post is speculations like usual. And btw, while they were discussing cease fire in Minsk, Putin sent more military to help the russian troops already spending their vacation in Ukraine ( http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 16351.html ) .
These articles are good finds and they are both decent reads. The NATO exercise is near the polish border which should be therefore less threatening at a time when tensions are already high. I earlier suggested that both sides likely have players in action but not officially. Russia and the US both deny their presence, but we know they are likely there. The 2nd article is more assumption than fact as would be expected. We know that Russia is likely sending them but they state that they are volunteers and thus not being paid for their participation. These are convenient stories which can be told by either side when captured. So far, the threat of capture is less dangerous as many seem to be returned after proof of their capture is documented. Likely others are still shot though and so therefore there is some risk in capture.

The thread is about hunger in Donetsk, which means it is about those Ukrainians from the east and their current situation. I've tried to keep the links here along their present situation and the analysis of possible scenarios playing out, etc, more in the psychology thread. I know they interconnect in so many ways due to using this conflict as a daily example creates that aspect of crossover.

The plight of those people living in this region during all this conflict is ongoing. It is becoming obvious that any major confrontation will likely occur in this region and thus 14 million people will have to bear the brunt because Russia can't support that many refugees and all know it. I often think many folks forget that fact when watching things unfold during this conflict. Therefore the percentage of deaths is still low but necessities like food and water are now reaching a critical state. These 14 million people have now been reduced to dependency on others to provide even these basics.

- How can you feed your family while hiding in basements?

- Why are those in the west so adamant to stop Russian aid from reaching those in the east?

- How long could Russia maintain such a quest alone?

- Why isn't our news giving any mention to this obvious growing problem?

As I've pointed out before, it is obvious that the UN and NATO are hiding many aspects of this current crisis. And I will remind all again.... I DO NOT SIDE WITH RUSSIA ... I just dislike the fact that my side is supporting actions that are less than honourable , all in the name of capitalism, not in the name of democracy as our governments so often proclaim!

If the plight of these people of east Ukraine are ignored, soon they will start dying from starvation or disease from unsanitary conditions. And when they do, most likely we will point the finger at Russia again and proclaim this is also their fault. Meanwhile, we will conveniently forget that we could have sent them aid as we often publicize having done so with other nations because we are the nice guys. It appears to not be in our best interests to help these folks and so our news seems to forget this aspect when reporting events in this region.

Details such as this seem to go unnoticed by us and this fact is what Russia in turn is trying to capitalize on. Putin is using this aspect to increase his popularity that our side continually denies. Putin's aid convoy showed other nations such as China and India that he is the more just in this conflict. Many will ignore that Russia is supporting those in the east because he is also standing against the obvious tyranny that is holding this country hostage these days. When an all out war does come to pass as it seems some are so avidly promoting, the UN will then finally have to admit to us that Russia has half or more of the world's population backing them, but no worries, right?

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:46 am

I found this English explanation of the eastern Ukraine perspective regarding their overall stand against the west. It may give you better insight as to why they chose to separate and why the language barrier is such an important factor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkVhDyZP3Y

(and I put this article here as I am not dissecting it, just presenting it.)

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:28 pm

Russia sent 2nd convoy into Ukraine without official permission after waiting another week at the border https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFMPcwPNO28
Seems no one searched these trucks so there will eventually be some fallout over this matter too.

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peppercorn
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Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by peppercorn » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:30 pm

Knuckle, others have said they are not interested in your utbe links. I will go further and say I am not interested in anyones utube vids. I have always thought they dumb down a site as they try to pass for content and thought. If utube vids are anyones arguement to anything...well they have nothing. Think I am wrong go for a internet tour of some sites...90% links and utube vids or endless cut and paste articals trying to pass for substance, but highlighting the lack of it.
Posts without links may have my attention as something original or thoughtful may be present.

With that said (I sure hope I was not ambigous) , This hunger in Donetsk is not about hunger, anymore more than food is the answer, well it may be the answer to those who are hungry, but its not like they matter. This is entirely about regenal domanance, and Nato expansion... as was Georgia.
The people east or west did not want to fight each other in urban warfare, despite the language conflict, reginal dissparity such as heavy industry in the east, agriculture more dominant in the west they were getting by and along, with problems for sure.... Every person there knows the cost of war, they have had plenty, read any history book about that piece of realistate.
Other interests besides people, have no problem with war.
What I find amazzing is that Putin hasnt driven down south cutting off the east and gaining a land bridge to Crimiea.I would have already done so in his shoes.
Open any atlas, look at the Panama canal, now imagine Russia (or China) helping to overthrow a the Panamainian Government, and talking about a Military alliance....Look at that atlas....Think the USA world not have to act. Look at that atlas again, Find Ukraine, for you Americans its not in Northamerica you will have to flip a few pages, Take a good look, now imagine your Putin, and you look west and up and you can see all the Nato countries there, And even if your not a parranoid Russan you know Nato is just another tool for American foriegn policy, Like the IMF, (you did know that right?) So whats the bear to do? well again if you have read any history book you know Ukraine is a absolute trip wire for the bear, No less so than the panama canal for the USA.
The fact Putin hasnt taken the east yet has me wondering if for the moment he isnt content to just keep things on simmer, thus depribing Ukraine of its eastern industrial production and the much needed revenue, to the benifit of his own industrial base,and to help hobble Ukraine and lesson its value to the west and increase the cost associated should the the west further encroch, and lets not forget fully fracture the country east west if the west keeps pushing.This is all one giant chess game, and I absolutly have to hold my sides in when I see posts about CME, and sun activity, when you do not have to look off world to find serious threats than can turn hot (as in thermo nuclear)faster than you can say pass the perrogies.
As for the hungry...well does either side care?...I quess so...if it serves thier interests...for now.

As to utube vids, When tanks roll south to take the east I am sure they will roll over enough villages so there can be lots of utube vids that show just how savage the Ukraine forces are...Know what im saying Vern. Think not? read some history books.
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:55 pm

(I try not to mix the psychological aspects of this conflict in to these other threads but since asked here, it is likely easier to just answer here too)

Peppercorn, you have many good insights to the conflict which show you are paying attention. But I use the videos to hopefully help contradict the news feeds we are fed daily suggesting that which isn't true. I agree that one has to be careful because there are so many telling a story while using the same video another presented earlier while suggesting an opposite opinion.

Therefore selections presented have to be measured by the content itself. Is there pertinent evidence in the video itself to uncover the truth? If there are comments, do they coincide with that which we see playing out? Is there enough proof in the video content itself to show contradiction against the presenter's suggested viewpoint if it doesn't fit the video given? My point is that these videos are often the only "real proof" of what is going on versus all the propaganda we are being bombarded with. I hope that I do this with care and I try to be as honest as I can when committing to this process. And I do this because I note many people are ready to promote the aspect of war based soley upon this misinformation being continually fed to us from those with hidden agendas.

I too often wonder about Putin's decisions. He has to be very careful just knowing his opponent will twist almost any action made as an act of aggression when it may have been an act of defense only. This is most olikely why he hasn't created that corridor to link Russia with Crimea. Such a move would be obviously considered enough provocation to allow NATO to strike in Ukraine's defense. I figure Putin also considers time is on his side as each day allows the Euro and US dollar to weaken further in their faltering economy. I totally view Putin as a wolf in sheep's clothing too. I can't seem to find fault in any of his previous actions and that is disturbing. He always seems to have an escape route to wiggle out of any situation. He is not to be underestimated. There are only strong suspicions that big players like China and India back Russia as he keeps even his alliances a secret from us. Therefore our side tries to convince us he stands alone when that possibility is very unlikely.

Your comparison of the Panama Canal too is a good one. It should indeed give the US pause with just knowing Brazil joining the BRIC . Especially during an economic collapse, it would likely be the starting point for any invasion upon the US. Any such attacks on the US would be met with far less ground defenses as the US has stretched itself thin with maintaining so many bases around the world. To not consider counter attacks being made closer to home during a major conflict would be stupid indeed. It is obvious we are relying strictly on technology as an early warning system to such an event.

I am sorry that you don't feel my efforts have been of any great value. I must admit that I too tire of spending so much time on what seems to be a thankless cause. There are many others out there who seem to have greater success presenting these facts than I appear to. Denob's pointing to the Survival Podcast series often mentions this same distrust in our present day media. I now listen to many of these shows too. The main fault I find in this show is also one which I find way too much in Alex Jones( who has many other issues)...commercialization - their paying sponsors can often weaken their shows core values and therefore degrades their cause. Yet if one gets past this aspect, there is always some good knowledge to be found from listening in.

My point is that you didn't acquire good insight from not listening to what's going on. You acquired this insight from listening, sorting and cataloging that which you believe is truth into your memory banks. You may tire of all this false propaganda too, but hopefully you keep seeing the truth peeking out amidst it all!

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peppercorn
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Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by peppercorn » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:12 pm

Putin doesnt have to be careful, nor is he reacting only to the acts of the west as they develop. His desion to take Ukraine was made long ago, Crimea was only the openning step, and Nato be damned The only reason Tanks are not in Kiev right now is he achieving his objective without them, and maybe more without them....I will explain...He has Crimea no if ands or buts, He has cracked the country north/south east to west however you wish to look at it. It is only the degree of that fracture he is playing with, Removing the energy assets (coal) and industrial production from kiev, thus anyhope of economic recovery for Ukraine unless he allows it (its going to be a hell of a winter)...western Ukraine? well like I said he made the decision to take it but I didnt say when...its way more advantagous for him right now to let that go for a while...sort of a poison pill for the west to digest for a bit, make onus/crushing IMF loans to that further drive the people into greater poverty, with no hope of ever getting out of,and with that greater anger for the west. Just imagine IMF loans to Kiev having to be paid to Russia before the gas taps are turned on again... Time is on his side...
Nato's reaction to what he does now? Not a concern for him, thats been planned for already, was planned for before the orders to take Crimea were given...Ukraine is a absolute trip wire for the bear...forget that to your own peril

My reference to the panama canal was not about a point for invasion, but rather its importance in shipping, specificaly the movement of American naval assets from one ocean to the next.....its a long way to go around!

"I am sorry that you don't feel my efforts have been of any great value".

No... your efforts when made are of great value, my point was someones utube vids are not your efforts,...you can do better than utube vids
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:19 pm

What evidence is better than actual video footage to prove that an event actually took place? As mentioned earlier, I thought I was saving many folks their valuable time by sifting thru tons of this data and presenting visual proof to back up my conclusions. By just following these threads backwards, you can even review events now to see that the only aggressive move made by Russia was to grab Crimea at the onset of their overthrow of an elected legitimate government. Russia indeed annexed Crimea and attained a legitimate vote from Crimea before Ukraine managed to create this new present government... (a smart move, yes?)

The start of all this is due to the actions of the EU though as Russia had nothing to gain by dethroning the previous government. Why Russia never helped the Ukraine develop their own resources earlier also shows that Russia too wanted to control Ukraine by holding their economy hostage. And this is what the EU played upon when offering their so called solution to Ukraine's financial crisis. Too bad that the EU felt they had to affiliate with neo-Nazi's to achieve this success though.

Neither side is innocent in this and it is sad for all of Ukraine that theirs has to be the place that these two major powers confront one another. I believe this conflict is far from over and one should consider that those 14 million people located in east Ukraine are almost equal half the population of all of Canada. If they bring in the big guns and play real war, this conflict of super powers would decimate this population in record time. Yet these folks would have no refuge as they are surrounded by only enemies other than Russia. Anyone wonder why none of the EU nations haven't offered any aid to the east when all their infrastructure is lost and their food is running out? These actions too show EU's concerns are not for those living in the east. Yet those in the east live on hope alone while we all know this doesn't fill one's belly!

prom
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Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by prom » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:26 am

Knuckle wrote:What evidence is better than actual video footage to prove that an event actually took place? As mentioned earlier, I thought I was saving many folks their valuable time by sifting thru tons of this data and presenting visual proof to back up my conclusions.
You are actually taking a lot of my time to research and correct all the BS and misinformation you're posting. :) Also I have a feeling not too many people give a SH++T about Ukraine posts.
Knuckle wrote:By just following these threads backwards, you can even review events now to see that the only aggressive move made by Russia was to grab Crimea at the onset of their overthrow of an elected legitimate government.
By now there is no doubt about the massive russian implication in the conflict.
Knuckle wrote:Anyone wonder why none of the EU nations haven't offered any aid to the east when all their infrastructure is lost and their food is running out? These actions too show EU's concerns are not for those living in the east. Yet those in the east live on hope alone while we all know this doesn't fill one's belly!

You're spreading misinformation again.
This is from Aug 12th and it just came up when I did a simple google search with "ukraine european humanitarian aid":

<<<The European Commission is giving additional funding of €2.5 million to assist the most vulnerable people affected by the continuing fighting in Eastern Ukraine. This humanitarian aid is geared towards helping to register and relocate internally displaced people (IDPs), provide shelter, food, water, healthcare, psycho-social assistance and protection in preparation for the coming winter.>>>>

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-924_en.htm

I will get back later on the other thread to show how you're using the power of suggestion to do anti (western) government propaganda.

Knuckle

Re: Ukraine hunger in Donetsk

Post by Knuckle » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:21 pm

prom wrote:
<<<The European Commission is giving additional funding of €2.5 million to assist the most vulnerable people affected by the continuing fighting in Eastern Ukraine. This humanitarian aid is geared towards helping to register and relocate internally displaced people (IDPs), provide shelter, food, water, healthcare, psycho-social assistance and protection in preparation for the coming winter.>>>>

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-924_en.htm

I will get back later on the other thread to show how you're using the power of suggestion to do anti (western) government propaganda.

So I too googled for some new news as I haven't done this for a few days and your article is indeed the first I found to mention any direct aid to the displaced people of the east. All other aid is to the western government in the form of monetary aid to pay their bills. Which should come first? Humanitarian or monetary aid? Hard not to note that even this isn't official as yet or this kindness would make the world news as further propaganda. Not quite the same as Russia's attempts for glory with their trucking convoy risking attack to deliver the goods! Just as the west had the east to the point where basic essentials such as food and water where becoming scarce, Putin messed things up by resupplying and grabbing some glory along the way.

You show me where I use misinformation and I will gladly retract and apologize. I know that you would prefer thinking our western governments have only committed defensive gestures throughout this dilemma but that would be a gross lie. These new sanctions against Russia after they withdrew their so-called volunteers blatantly portrays us as the aggressor and forewarns this is not over yet! And there is much more European dissension over these actions as they are so much closer to this conflict. Articles such as this seem to be published more easily abroad, yet even this article mentions censorship occurring in Holland too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qfmqZvF3GI

Many of our search engines seems to filter much of this content from reaching North America. From what I've figured so far, Google and Bing seem to place their priority placing at the far back so most viewers will tire out before discovering them. YouTube doesn't work on those same principles of search parameters as they seem to just block certain links instead. This aspect can be seen by just noting how many of the previous videos I linked here are now unavailable. This denotes censorship, no matter how you paint it.

It appears that our governments use the same tactics as used when dismissing all the holes found in the events leading to and after 9/11. By simply ignoring the 1,700 plus architectural engineers who petitioned to reopen the investigation, major questions go unanswered by proclaiming them "conspiracy theorists". Hard to argue with logic like that as it denotes a child standing with their fingers in their ears going "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA " .

I have presented too many facts that you obviously don't challenge as you haven't the answers either. Instead your approach is to find and target minor details and thus avoid the many points I present regarding EU's and now NATO's actions to further escalate this situation. We could especially go over all the initial events at the start of this conflict, as there were so many at the onset that it captured my attention as another potential 9/11 type event. I was better prepared for media misinformation this time round and decided then to challenge and expose these media tactics so others might ask questions too.

Maybe the majority of the people do prefer to live in a bubble...hard to tell as most also proclaim their having been awake during the whole event too. So then ask yourself, which do you prefer....the red pill or the blue one?

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